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Topic: Marine's Family Wins Suit Against Fred Phelps
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Clever Login Name
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posted October 31, 2007 02:03 PM
This will probably get overturned on appeal, but hopefully it's costing those inbred a-holes some serious cash:
Father of slain Marine wins case against funeral protesters
Pa. man awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages
By Matthew Dolan | Sun reporter
3:56 PM EDT, October 31, 2007
Albert Snyder of York, Pa., the father of a Westminster Marine who was killed in Iraq, today won his case in a Baltimore federal court against members of Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church who protested at his son's funeral last year.
The jury of five women and four men awarded Snyder $2.9 million in compensatory damages. The amount of punitive damages to be awarded has not yet been decided. The jury deliberated for about two hours yesterday and much of today.
Snyder was the first in the nation to attempt to hold members of Westboro Baptist Church legally liable for their shock protests at military funerals after the church protested the military's inclusion of gays at the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew A. Snyder, a 2003 Westminster High School graduate who died March 3, 2006, in a vehicle accident in Anbar province.
In June 2006, Snyder sued the tight-knit fundamentalist Christian church and three of its members individually. The father argued that Westboro's demonstrations exacerbated his pain and suffering in March 2006 while he mourned the death of his only son.
Specifically, he charged that they violated his privacy, intentionally inflicted emotional harm and engaged in a conspiracy to carry out their activities. The jury decided in Snyder's favor on every count.
The church and its members maintained that they did nothing wrong. They based their legal defense on the First Amendment, arguing that their protests were constitutionally protected. Their attorneys told jurors yesterday that Westboro members were expressing closely held religious beliefs about an immoral society, including the military, that has endorsed homosexuality.
Jonathan Katz, the attorney for the church and one of its founders, said that members followed state law during their protest in Westminster because they stood on public property about 1,000 feet from the funeral.
The church's controversial protests have prompted at least 22 states to enact or propose laws to limit the rights of protesters at funerals. Only months after Matthew Snyder's death, Maryland passed a law prohibiting people from picketing within 100 feet of a funeral, memorial, burial or procession.
matthew.dolan@baltsun.com
Previously published information from Matthew Dolan was included in this article.
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Fred Thompson has released a comprehensive plan to save Social Security: Kill old hippies.
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Tripe Face
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posted October 31, 2007 02:05 PM
May the good Lord and the US justice system see to it that the award be paid... IN FULL.
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"Tripe is getting far too much attention.
There will be no dealing with him soon." Writer2 11/9/07
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Jane Craig
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posted October 31, 2007 02:06 PM
I would love to see the verdicts all stand. At the very least it's harassment.
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Pro
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posted October 31, 2007 02:11 PM
I agree, it is a moral victory, but will probably be reversed on appeal.
As far as I know, no laws were broken if the protests were done on public property.
Sometimes, you have to stand up for the rights of groups who's message and tactics you detest. That's part of the price of living in a free society. The distasteful part. And the unpopular part.
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rawhead rex
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posted October 31, 2007 02:17 PM
Regrettably, the exercize of one's rights carries no imperative for a sense of decency.
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Tripe Face
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posted October 31, 2007 02:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Pro:
I agree, it is a moral victory, but will probably be reversed on appeal.
As far as I know, no laws were broken if the protests were done on public property.
No laws HAVE to be broken. It was a CIVIL court matter.
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"Tripe is getting far too much attention.
There will be no dealing with him soon." Writer2 11/9/07
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Produce man
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posted October 31, 2007 02:23 PM
Great news. May God bless all of the families who have had to endure the Phelps cult.
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"DON'T TAZE ME, BRO!"
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Clever Login Name
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posted October 31, 2007 02:24 PM
But if they were within their Constitutional rights to be doing what they're doing, there should be no civil liability. It's an emotion verdict that, again, will likely be overturned by actual judges of the law and the facts.
But I do hope this drags on and costs ferret-faced Fred a ton o' dough.
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Fred Thompson has released a comprehensive plan to save Social Security: Kill old hippies.
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ISTHISTHINGON?
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posted October 31, 2007 02:32 PM
Yeah, I don't think(though I hope)the family will ever recover the money. Maybe that crazy f-ing Phelps will be hit by a car and then hit by a truck and then hit by a horse and then bit by a Coral snake rendering him nothing more than the piece of sh!t he is. And yes, maybe that's kind of cruel, but so is a guy that protest at a funeral. Sick f!ck!
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"I quit the band, now I just play with myself"
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Diplomat
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posted October 31, 2007 02:34 PM
God bless the hero and his family.
God have mercy on the false prophet Fred Phelps and the moral crimes he has committed.
Good decision!
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"I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University."
William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Pro
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posted October 31, 2007 02:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tripe Face:
No laws HAVE to be broken. It was a CIVIL court matter.
Yes they do. CIVIL laws. And as far as I know, it is not a criminal or civil violation to protest on public property.
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Focker
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posted October 31, 2007 03:39 PM
Good to hear. After years of covering the cult while reporting in Topeka, I'm glad to hear someone's sticking it to him.
P-h-u-c-k Phred.
But as I've said in earlier posts, I have to give it to him that he believes deeply in his...beliefs. There's no such thing as simply having a conversation with the man...or his kids...it always turns into a debate or arguement. And I agree with Pro that sometimes you have to defend those you detest the most to keep our free society free. Crappy Catch-22.
[ October 31, 2007, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Focker ]
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kydocking
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posted October 31, 2007 04:10 PM
How old is Phelps anyway? Shouldn't he be close to death himself? (or the nursing home anyway.)
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the original buttongod
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posted October 31, 2007 04:31 PM
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Shot A Load
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posted October 31, 2007 05:47 PM
I'm going to be the unpopular one and say if they broke no laws then there should no judgment against the Westboro group. I really hate that group (they came to my city and I had to cover them) but I think you shouldn't penalize people for protesting anywhere. Where else will people not be allowed to protest without the threat of ramifications? Unions, environmentalist, tree-huggin' hippies could end up in the same situations.
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the original buttongod
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posted October 31, 2007 06:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Shot A Load:
I'm going to be the unpopular one and say if they broke no laws then there should no judgment against the Westboro group. I really hate that group (they came to my city and I had to cover them) but I think you shouldn't penalize people for protesting anywhere. Where else will people not be allowed to protest without the threat of ramifications? Unions, environmentalist, tree-huggin' hippies could end up in the same situations.
Why does ANYONE need to travel from Kansas to Maryland to protest at a funeral ? Why travel anywhere to protest a funeral ? You may have been exposed to them once, some of us live in the same city. Some of us have to work with a member of the family. (see above inbreeding graphic). You will not get your feet wet in that gene pool !
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"Remember,'talent' is a noun !"
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JoinUsForCake
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posted October 31, 2007 06:37 PM
I am just wondering what kind of so-called "God" these hateful nutbags proclaim to believe in... and do they really think their tactics HELP their cause?
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"I refuse to live in a world where whispers become fact, and guilty men murmur; the innocent shout to the rafters." -- Jim Williams, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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buckpasser
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posted October 31, 2007 07:20 PM
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Members of the anti-gay Westboro Baptist Church are urging Fred Thompson to support their stance on homosexuality — a position on which they say the Republican presidential candidate once "saw eye to eye" with them.
Thompson was hired for a mid-1980s legal case in Kansas on the recommendation of Margie Phelps, daughter of Westboro founder Fred Phelps.
The Topeka, Kan.-based church is now best known for protesting at soldiers' funerals, claiming their deaths are retribution for the nation's acceptance of homosexuality.
Thompson campaign spokeswoman Karen Hanretty on Wednesday dismissed the church as "a radical fringe group, looking to draw attention to themselves."
"Their behavior at the funerals of fallen soldiers is disgraceful and reprehensible," she said. "In no way do these people share Fred's values."
Church members released an open letter to Thompson this week, saying he had discussed his views on homosexuality with them while handling the case of a woman who had sued the state's Republican attorney general for sexual harassment.
"We know what your position used to be on the homosexual question — and it was wonderful, and we saw eye to eye," church members said in the letter to Thompson.
That statement appears to conflict with comments made by Margie Phelps to the Journal-World of Lawrence, Kan., in June about her interaction with Thompson.
"I'm quite confident he would've completely disagreed with everything about my faith," she told the paper.
Phelps' sister, Shirley Phelps-Roper, said in a phone interview Wednesday that while Thompson might disagree with the church today, he didn't disagree then.
And yet, Phelps-Roper said, "He wouldn't dare stand up and say that when he's running for president."
Thompson, a former Tennessee senator, has said he favors a constitutional amendment that bars judges from legalizing gay marriage but would leave the door open for state legislatures to act.
Thompson was hired in 1985 to represent Marcia Tomson Stingley, who sued Kansas Attorney General Bob Stephan, accusing him of violating a confidentially agreement on a sexual harassment case she had filed against him.
Margie Phelps, the original attorney on the harassment case, could no longer represent Stingley because she was now a witness. She recommended Thompson because she had just read a book about his representation of Marie Ragghianti, a Tennessee official fired by the state's governor because she refused to go along with a cash-for-clemency scheme.
Thompson won a $200,000 judgment against Stephan, who abandoned plans to run for governor because of the controversy. Stephan avoided paying by declaring bankruptcy.
A campaign spokesman this summer said that Thompson's firm did not make any money off the case.
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Jax
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posted October 31, 2007 08:26 PM
I really hope the families of every person they've protested file suit against these folks now.
I also hope Mr. Phelps own funeral gets protested by those he's hurt over the years.
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rawhead rex
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posted October 31, 2007 08:30 PM
There are more than few things which though legal lack completely in legitimacy.
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Diplomat
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posted October 31, 2007 09:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jax:
I really hope the families of every person they've protested file suit against these folks now.
I also hope Mr. Phelps own funeral gets protested by those he's hurt over the years.
His funeral will likely be a celebration. Not of his life but of his death.
Phelps is a very sick and evil person. His behavior is an abomination to God.
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"I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University."
William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Judge
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posted October 31, 2007 10:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Diplomat:
quote:
Originally posted by Jax:
I really hope the families of every person they've protested file suit against these folks now.
I also hope Mr. Phelps own funeral gets protested by those he's hurt over the years.
His funeral will likely be a celebration. Not of his life but of his death.
Phelps is a very sick and evil person. His behavior is an abomination to God.
I admit having a hard time watching video of the Phelps family, because the anger and sadness of seeing children in the arms of those people is sickening.
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Pro
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posted November 01, 2007 01:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Diplomat:
His funeral will likely be a celebration. Not of his life but of his death.
And if that celebration were held on public property near the funeral location, it, too, would be perfectly legal.
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Focker
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posted November 01, 2007 07:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kydocking:
How old is Phelps anyway? Shouldn't he be close to death himself? (or the nursing home anyway.)
Well, he was in his prime back in '86 when he sang "God is in his Holy temple," and told the Freelings "You are all gonna die!"
[ November 01, 2007, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Focker ]
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!
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posted November 01, 2007 07:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Pro:
I agree, it is a moral victory, but will probably be reversed on appeal.
As far as I know, no laws were broken if the protests were done on public property.
Sometimes, you have to stand up for the rights of groups who's message and tactics you detest. That's part of the price of living in a free society. The distasteful part. And the unpopular part.
Correct.
And while I detest what's he and his group have been doing, the Constitution protects his right to do it.
You know, this old quote:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
I'm surprised that so many people whose livelihood depends on that concept are pleased that a man's been punished for exercising his Constitutionally-guaranteed rights.
If the First Amendment only protects popular speech, it protects nothing at all.
[ November 01, 2007, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: ! ]
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Tripe Face
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posted November 01, 2007 08:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Shot A Load:
I'm going to be the unpopular one and say if they broke no laws then there should no judgment against the Westboro group. I really hate that group (they came to my city and I had to cover them) but I think you shouldn't penalize people for protesting anywhere. Where else will people not be allowed to protest without the threat of ramifications? Unions, environmentalist, tree-huggin' hippies could end up in the same situations.
You and pro make the same mistake... you are confusing the two parts of America's justice system.
One is criminal. You break a law, the state takes you to court, convicts you and punishes you with fines, jail, death.
One is civil. You do something to another person, party. That person takes you to court, and asks the court to agree that you did something that harmed you. Then asks the court to force you to PAY MONEY to the harmed party. No laws need be broken.
Look at one of the most famous cases in civil trial history... The McDonalds hot coffee case. It's not illegal to make hot coffee, know one threw it at the woman who was burned, no one wanted her to get burned. But she did and the jury decided McDonalds was partially at fault because it made its coffee much hotter than necessary and its coffee cup lids didn't properly fit the cut. So it "punished" McDonalds.
OK Class over, read chapter 3 for tomorrow.
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"Tripe is getting far too much attention.
There will be no dealing with him soon." Writer2 11/9/07
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Pro
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posted November 01, 2007 12:52 PM
Your mistake that it IS illegal to do bodily injury to another person. That's what the McDonald's case was all about. The plaintiffs convinced the jury that McDonald's had a reckless disregard for the potential of bodily injury their extremly hot coffee could cause. That is a violation of civil law.
However speech is protected against both civil and criminal law (unless that speech is libel, slader or calls upon people to become violent).
EVERYBODY is covered under freedom of speech. Even if that speech is vulgar and reprehensible.
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rawhead rex
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posted November 01, 2007 12:58 PM
The Columbia World of Quotations. 1996.
NUMBER: 63040
QUOTATION: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
ATTRIBUTION: Voltaire [François Marie Arouet] (1694–1778), French philosopher, author. what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.”
Real name François Marie Arouet.
Voltaire died 11 years before George Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, but apparently Mason may have drawn some inpsiration from him.
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NewsMom
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posted November 02, 2007 02:06 PM
Indeed, as much as the verdict makes me smile, I'll be quite shocked if it's upheld.
Just like the KKK, the Phelps clan is entitled to free speech.
The Phelps' are absolutely nuts, you know. It's impossible to do an interview with them. They're nuts, nuts, nuts. (And after you get close to them, you really want to take a shower).
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"If your mother says she loves you, check it out." A.A. Dornfeld, City News Bureau of Chicago
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Tripe Face
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posted November 02, 2007 02:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Pro:
Your mistake that it IS illegal to do bodily injury to another person. That's what the McDonald's case was all about. The plaintiffs convinced the jury that McDonald's had a reckless disregard for the potential of bodily injury their extremly hot coffee could cause. That is a violation of civil law.
However speech is protected against both civil and criminal law (unless that speech is libel, slader or calls upon people to become violent).
EVERYBODY is covered under freedom of speech. Even if that speech is vulgar and reprehensible.
There are exceptions to the freedom of speech clause. You can sue someone if the deliberately lie about you. You can sue someone if they yell "Fire" in a crowded theater and your child is crushed in the stampede. And you can sue someone if they yell, scream and intentionally cause you emotional distress. And you can win... to the tune of $11,000,000.00 (That was the final number when the jury tacked on the punative damages.)
I don't doubt it will be lowered on appeal (most big judgements are. I just hope it's not overturned on appeal.)
I'm taking hope in the fact that Westboro doesn't have deep pockets with which to hire an battery of big time lawyers who can file an unending stream of appeals and motions. perhaps that will work on the side of the family of the dead Marine and all the families who have been tormented.
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"Tripe is getting far too much attention.
There will be no dealing with him soon." Writer2 11/9/07
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!
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posted November 02, 2007 02:26 PM
Should abortion-clinic protesters who "yell, scream and intentionally cause emotional distress" to the women entering be sued for $11,000,000 and win?
[ November 02, 2007, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: ! ]
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NewsMom
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posted November 02, 2007 02:41 PM
Nope, I don't think expressing one's stupidity amounts to "emotional distress". If it does, I'm gonna start filing lots of suits.
I've never figured out how the Phelps' pay for their expenses (travel) for their lunacy. They don't have an obvious source of income.
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"If your mother says she loves you, check it out." A.A. Dornfeld, City News Bureau of Chicago
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Pro
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posted November 02, 2007 02:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tripe Face:
There are exceptions to the freedom of speech clause. You can sue someone if the deliberately lie about you. You can sue someone if they yell "Fire" in a crowded theater and your child is crushed in the stampede. And you can sue someone if they yell, scream and intentionally cause you emotional distress. And you can win... to the tune of $11,000,000.00 (That was the final number when the jury tacked on the punative damages.)
I pointed out the exceptions to freedom of speech in a previous post.
And, yes, you can win on the jury level, if you can convince the jury to nullify laws. That happens a LOT. The true test is if it wll stand on appeal.
Unlike in criminal cases, appelate courts often overturn entire civil judgements on the basis of being "wrong" or not in keeping with civil law. (In criminal cases, the only time appelate courts usually overturn verdicts is if there was impropriaty in the trial or the process, or if the law itself, is unconstitutional).
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JoinUsForCake
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posted November 02, 2007 02:53 PM
How about the abortion protestors who bring their 7 year olds with them and hold up giant 6' X 6' signs of bloody dead fetuses?
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"I refuse to live in a world where whispers become fact, and guilty men murmur; the innocent shout to the rafters." -- Jim Williams, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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Pro
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posted November 02, 2007 02:55 PM
If they do that on public property, and do not cause harm or incite violence, they are within their rights.
Making someone uncomfortable is not a crime.
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Clever Login Name
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posted November 05, 2007 01:06 PM
Anyone know how much of this is true? The story has pictures of Phelps with Al Gore during his '88 campaign, and includes a lot of quotes from a Wikipedia entry, so it can be taken with a grain of salt, but there's a good point in there that the media willfully and freely keep reporting his group as a Baptist church, when in fact no association exists. The comments from his kids who escaped his clutches are telling ... again, if they're for real:
Phelps's history with the Democratic Party
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Fred Thompson has released a comprehensive plan to save Social Security: Kill old hippies.
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Tripe Face
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posted November 05, 2007 01:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by !:
Should abortion-clinic protesters who "yell, scream and intentionally cause emotional distress" to the women entering be sued for $11,000,000 and win?
Yea I think they should sue... it's up to the jury to decide the amount of the damages... if any!
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"Tripe is getting far too much attention.
There will be no dealing with him soon." Writer2 11/9/07
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Pro
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posted November 05, 2007 01:43 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the term "Baptist" is copyrighted. ANY church can claim to be a "Baptist" church, if they so desire.
And I have heard media reports that did state that this "chuch" was unaffiliated with any Baptist organization. But they aren't the only ones, there are many, many, churches in the U.S. that say they are "Baptist" but are not affiliated wth any Baptist group (Southern Baptist Convention, etc.)
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Diplomat
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posted November 05, 2007 01:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoinUsForCake:
How about the abortion protestors who bring their 7 year olds with them and hold up giant 6' X 6' signs of bloody dead fetuses?
I do not think they should bring their kids to rallies. Nor should those who favor abortion bring theirs to events. Leave the kids out of these political issues.
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"I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University."
William F. Buckley, Jr.
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Diplomat
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posted November 05, 2007 01:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Pro:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe the term "Baptist" is copyrighted. ANY church can claim to be a "Baptist" church, if they so desire.
And I have heard media reports that did state that this "chuch" was unaffiliated with any Baptist organization. But they aren't the only ones, there are many, many, churches in the U.S. that say they are "Baptist" but are not affiliated wth any Baptist group (Southern Baptist Convention, etc.)
Phelps' "church" is what's called an "independent" Baptist church. Having looked at their website a few years ago when they came to town to protest something, I saw nothing on the site but their screeds against gay people. There was nothing about salvation or everyday Christian living, stuff that most churches address.
As you say, any church can call itself "Baptist." There are many different Baptist denominations, such as the Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Missionary Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and so on.
All the term "Baptist" means is that they baptize, usually by immersion.
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"I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University."
William F. Buckley, Jr.
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