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Author
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Topic: Let the steroids fun begin...
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sonorandesert
Open Line Veteran
Member # 739
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posted October 16, 2007 02:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorDepends:
Bringing up Cal and Gwynn is silly. Matt Williams....he was a guy. Tejada....and of course Brady Anderson.
Matt Williams?
Care to elaborate?
What about Gonzo?
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Call me desert.
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Illinois Boy
Senior Member
Member # 1458
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posted October 16, 2007 05:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Judge:
I think the sum of these posts...and the collective fear that some "good guys" could show up on that list... capsulize the worry of true baseball fans.
It's not about "your guy" or "my guy," but the notion that specific heroes and ambassadors of our generation of baseball might well be exposed as cheaters.
The list is coming out soon. It will likely be a dark day, to be sure. Fans who spend that day pointing fingers and laughing aren't true fans, in my opinion.
I'm a baseball fan and I don't get it.
Everyone with common sense knew that these athletes were using steroids. You don't hit 70 homeruns in a season without them.
But we cheered McGwire. We cheered Brady Anderson. We cheered Juan Gonzalez. We cheered Jason Giambi. We cheered Lenny Dykstra. We even, for a time, cheered Jose Canseco. There's a much longer list than that.
And we knew. We includes baseball officials, team officials and sportswriters.
And the real question to grapple with is this: If everyone was doing it, pitchers included, was it really cheating?
I don't condemn these players. I don't think their statistics are tainted. For others to turn around now and vilify good men because they did what it took to be the best at their sport is cowardly. Where were these fans and sportswriters 10, 12 years ago.
I'll tell you where they were. They were standing on their feet applauding.
Posts: 853 | From: secret | Registered: Mar 2002
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22
Open Line Veteran
Member # 443
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posted October 16, 2007 05:43 AM
I think most of you are forgetting a very important point.
At the time most of this was being done, it was not against the rules. There was no rule against taking steroids and baseball had no policy regarding performance enhancing drugs.
Illinois Boy has a good point.
And if it is not against the rules, it is not cheating.
Now... in most states it may have been against the LAW... but that is a different topic.
Posts: 2204 | From: Atlanta,ga,usa | Registered: May 2001
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Illinois Boy
Senior Member
Member # 1458
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posted October 16, 2007 06:09 AM
It was a law the players, and many doctors, did not agree with. And it basically was a scoff law.
Look, I'm not the brightest guy in any room, but I can figure out the difference between Barry Bonds' and Mark McGwire's 70 homerun seasons and Willie Mays two 50 homerun seasons or Mickey Mantle's two 50 homerun seasons. I don't think the 70 homer seasons aren't legit, but I know they're inflated. And they stand alongside Mays and Mantle without apology.
Mantle, Ruth and Marris. What do they all have in common? A very short right and left field in Yankee stadium. And it used to be easier to hit homers there. The original dimensions at Yankee stadium were 295 to right and 281 feet to left.
Does that mean their incredible season records should be scrutinized and maybe washed away? Nope. It just means they played in a park where if they pulled the ball they had a better chance for a homerun. An advantage that Mays didn't have.
Fans know this and are able to judge the comparisons accurately.
So what if Cal Ripken Jr.'s name is on the list? It's not unlikely. Steroids help an athlete maintain strength for the grueling season. We should hate a man for doing that?
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“Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist” – Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1803-1882
Posts: 853 | From: secret | Registered: Mar 2002
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22
Open Line Veteran
Member # 443
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posted October 16, 2007 07:12 AM
I agree with Illinois Boy.
Remember, when these guys STARTED taking this stuff it really was like taking vitamins or eating creatin or working out in the weight room. All things that the old timers didn't do.
By the time the dangers were known, the genie was out of the bottle. It will go down in baseball history just like the dead ball era and the short fences.
Posts: 2204 | From: Atlanta,ga,usa | Registered: May 2001
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Judge
Senior Member
Member # 4323
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posted October 16, 2007 07:42 AM
You make good points, Illinois Boy.
I think we also have to remember when fans embraced McGwire for his 70 homers in '98...those were the days when it was the ball that was juiced (or so we all speculated, scratching our heads).
While whispers of steroids were getting louder, I think we all kept our wishful heads in the sand...and still do to some extent. It's not until we get slapped with the realities of the Palmeiros and McGwires that we get angry. Look what's happened to McGwire's image since his famous non-denial.
Ignorance is bliss I guess...but those superstars know if concrete evidence shows they were using, fans won't care if it was legal or not.
As for Ripken Jr...(if he's on the list)... maybe we shouldn't think less of a him for using such drugs to keep up with the grueling everyday of baseball...but then Lou Gehrig managed without them for 2100+ games.
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Mom
Open Line Veteran
Member # 553
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posted October 16, 2007 08:20 AM
From my point of view, as a casual baseball fan ... as much as I understand Illinois Boy's contentions and don't disagree with his assessments, I want the players' on this upcoming list held accountable. Why? Because they lied to my face.
I cheered Mark McGwire because (again I'm only a casual fan) I believed him when he said time after time after time that he didn't use performance enhancing drugs. How dare he. He only tells the truth when he gets in front of a congressional committee? What kind of role model is he to my children? A lousy one.
If everyone in baseball has used steroids just to keep up with everyone else using steroids then someone has to 'fess up. It's why I now have more respect for Jose Canseco then I do for Mark McGwire.
I also believed Marion Jones even though it was impossible to believe her. She was so passionate about her beliefs that performance enhancing drugs were bad. But now, years later, she admits she lied and she's sorry for any embarassment she may have caused? Come on!
I'm angry at every public figure who lies so blatantly. I want there to be accountability for being a liar. There's certainly none now. Lying isn't even considered a bad thing. Everything is okey dokey if you don't get caught. And then when you do get caught, just lie about it. And when lying doesn't seem to work, lie some more until you, yourself believe it. Right Floyd Landis?
When the list comes out and if suddenly all these players who lied about taking steroids are on the list and start making excuses such as, "Well everybody did it so I had no choice" or "I thought I was taking flaxseed oil" I'm going to remind them that they're no longer in the 4th grade and then I'll call them what they are:
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!!
Posts: 1855 | From: south | Registered: Jun 2001
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Another side
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Member # 1698
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posted October 16, 2007 05:32 PM
I'm with Mom. Not "everyone" knew they were taking steroids. I didn't ... and still don't. I'm waiting for the list though, and I'd like to see those who lied, those who cheated, punished. I'mone of thiose fans Judge talked about -- it doesn't make any difference whether they were legal or not -- they cheated.
And in the unlikely event Ripkin is on the list -- no, he doesn't get a free pass.
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DoctorDepends
Open Line Veteran
Member # 1576
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posted October 16, 2007 05:37 PM
While I would disagree that professional athletes did not know what they were putting in their bodies...
Another, I will agree (mark the date and time that I agreed with you) they should not only be punished by baseball, but if the law of the land is to have any meaning, they need to be prosecuted as well.
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JoinUsForCake
Open Line Veteran
Member # 4613
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posted October 16, 2007 05:59 PM
I called Jay Gibbons at the start of the season! Look at this guy a few years ago compared to this past season. Practically different people. I guaran-damn-tee Gibbons is on "The List" !!!
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"I refuse to live in a world where whispers become fact, and guilty men murmur; the innocent shout to the rafters." -- Jim Williams, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
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Paper Trail
Open Line Veteran
Member # 3269
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posted October 17, 2007 05:27 AM
Report: Mitchell gets documentation from Radomski about steroids clients
Associated Press
NEW YORK -- Baseball investigator George Mitchell has received an extensive paper trail documenting performance-enhancing drugs sent to players by former New York Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski, a person familiar with the probe said Monday.
Among the documents Mitchell and his staff have obtained are invoices detailing the substances sent to players, the person said, speaking on condition of anonymity because Mitchell hasn't authorized details to be made public.
Mitchell likely will issue his report on steroids in baseball by the end of the year, lawyer Thomas Carlucci said during a conference call with club officials Friday. Carlucci told them they should assume the report will name names.
Radomski pleaded guilty in April to distributing steroids to major league players from 1995-2005 and laundering money, and he was required as part of a plea agreement to cooperate with Mitchell, a former Senate Majority Leader who is a director of the Boston Red Sox.
An affidavit signed by IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky in December 2005 contains the names of players Radomski dealt with, but the names were blacked out when a copy of the affidavit was unsealed in April. Scott Schools, the U.S. Attorney in San Francisco, said then that Radomski admitted providing steroids, human growth hormone, amphetamines and other substances to "dozens of current and former Major League Baseball players and associates."
A federal judge rejected a request by Hearst Corp. to unseal the affidavit, and the company has asked the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to review the case.
Mitchell declined comment on Radomski, who is to be sentenced Nov. 9. Radomski met with Mitchell this year and revealed the names of players who bought steroids from him, SI.com reported in August.
Radomski's lawyer did not return a telephone call seeking comment.
Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain said Monday it was possible Congress will hold another hearing on steroids in baseball.
"Congress quite often goes in for a little headline grabbing, and then we move on because our attention span is rather short," McCain said on "The Dan Patrick Show." "I don't think that hearings are especially necessary until Sen. Mitchell issues his report."
McCain said it was a mistake not to include Barry Bonds in the March 2005 hearing that featured Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro.
"I think that maybe in retrospect that it probably would have been a good idea to do so, but that decision was made over in the House of Representatives," he said.
McCain said he considers Hank Aaron the home run king, even though Bonds has 762 homers, seven more than Aaron's total.
"Maybe an asterisk should be after Mr. Bonds' name," McCain said. "I'm not trying to impose it. I'm not telling Bud Selig to do it. I'm just saying that happens to be my personal opinion."
Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press
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McCovey Cove Returns
Open Line Veteran
Member # 6507
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posted October 19, 2007 05:50 PM
We just got word that one of San Francisco papers is breaking a big story on Barry Bonds, tomorrow. It's weird because they're pimping the guy who wrote the article to all the TV stations. How often does that happen?
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That's liking trying to f*ck while doing your taxes and singing karaoke. There are some things that you just shouldn't do at the same time.--markminn
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Paper Trail
Open Line Veteran
Member # 3269
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posted October 25, 2007 02:08 PM
Report: Selig won't rule out suspension if laws broken
ESPN.com news services
Gary Matthews Jr., Paul Byrd, Rick Ankiel and other Major League Baseball players who have been linked to human growth hormone in published reports face the prospect of a Bud Selig-imposed suspension if they are found to have violated U.S. law.
Citing a high-ranking major league official, The Los Angeles Times reported Thursday that Major League Baseball's commissioner hasn't ruled out such discipline for players even if they did not violate baseball's drug policy.
Major League Baseball did not ban HGH until January 2005, but steroids and HGH have been, and still are, illegal without a legitimate prescription.
SI.com reported earlier this year that Matthews ordered HGH in 2004. The Los Angeles Angels outfielder is expected to be called to Selig's office in November to discuss the report, The Times reported.
Byrd is the player most recently linked to HGH. On Sunday, the day of Game 7 of the ALCS, the San Francisco Chronicle reported the Indians right-hander had purchased nearly $25,000 worth of HGH and syringes between 2002 and 2005. Byrd said he was taking the drug under a doctor's care for what he described as a pituitary gland issue.
Byrd said the Indians and MLB officials knew of his condition -- "I have nothing to hide," Byrd said Sunday -- but both disputed the pitcher's claim. Baseball officials said they want to discuss the matter with him.
MLB also is bracing for the release, sometime in November or December, of the report of former Sen. George Mitchell's steroid investigation. In the time since Mitchell launched the probe 18 months ago, many have wondered whether the final report would reveal names.
It appears that will happen. Some officials came away from a 30-team MLB conference call recently with the understanding that Mitchell's probe into the use of performancing-enhancing drugs in the game would include many names, names which have so far not been disclosed publicly, and the names of well-known players.
According to those familiar with the conference call, Tom Carlucci, a lawyer for MLB, told the team representatives on the conference call that the report is going to be "salacious."
Meanwhile, Selig's office has started to receive information from the New York investigators leading a national probe into Internet drug trafficking, the official said. Documents and other supporting evidence could help Selig determine whether to impose a suspension -- and could help his lawyers in arguing any suspension should survive a potential grievance hearing.
Information from The Associated Press and Buster Olney of ESPN The Magazine was used in this report.
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DoctorDepends
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Member # 1576
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posted November 06, 2007 03:28 PM
Sonarandesert.....I don't have to elaborate on Williams, he did yesterday. Fans of players have to see their players without the rose colored glasses.
[ November 08, 2007, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: DoctorDepends ]
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Hack Wilson Fan
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Member # 4063
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posted November 08, 2007 07:46 PM
The full list will come out shortly. If Poo-Holes isn't on it, it's been redacted.
Mark my words.
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"Baseball is dull only for people with dull minds" - Red Barber, famous sports announcer.
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Kace
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Member # 7837
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posted November 08, 2007 08:27 PM
Drink!
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