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Author Topic: This is not a good sign
nsj
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Icon 13 posted May 24, 2006 01:40 PM      Profile for nsj     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hope no one wants any hurricane model forecasts any time soon:
quote:
Notice: Florida State University has mandated effective 24 May 2006 that no real-time weather forecasts relating potentially in any way to hurricanes are to be disseminated by faculty or students at FSU.

Consequently, this web page has been shut down UFN.

The authors of these web pages realize the value Of these pages, do not agree with the decision, And are working hard to overturn it.

A contact email and phone number to register complaints will be posted here soon.

From http://moe.met.fsu.edu/mm5/

Discuss.

[ May 24, 2006, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: nsj ]

Posts: 737 | From: 15 WNW TTA | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Keyeser
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 01:44 PM      Profile for Keyeser   Email Keyeser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't understand the logic behind this at all.

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Sooner Born... Sooner Bred... and When I Die I'll Be Sooner Dead...

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Scott Lincoln
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 01:54 PM      Profile for Scott Lincoln   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hopefully whoever made the decision realizes that once the email and phone numbers go up, they wont hear the end of it.

It will be great to hear what the reasoning was...
"anything partaining to hurricanes" can mean almost anything.... its pretty.... fishy....

Posts: 147 | From: Ames | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
wxspec
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 01:55 PM      Profile for wxspec     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
our good friend Senator Santorum press.. Is it finally getting the ball rolling on his master plan for ACU WX to rule the world?

[Doh]

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Red Rover
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 03:10 PM      Profile for Red Rover     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can understand them not wanting anything to do with Hurricane(s)

 -

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"While TV meteorologists warned of dire things to come, the manager of my cheap motel sailed under a different flag, the unofficial flag of Oklahoma, which in my mind included among its images a thunderbolt illuminating a plate of baby back ribs. The unofficial breakfast: a cigarette stubbed out in a donut. The unofficial motto 'No, we don't have a basement.'"
- Mark Svenvold

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IA Met
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for IA Met     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My guess is someone in the university is concerned that there are liability issues of offering forecast data for hurricanes.

I don't know how you could make a case stand, but I do know how some bureaucrats can get caught up in "what if" legal scenarios.

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"Indecision may or may not be my problem." - Jimmy Buffett

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TAFKA wacowx
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 03:31 PM      Profile for TAFKA wacowx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wxspec:
our good friend Senator Santorum press.. Is it finally getting the ball rolling on his master plan for ACU WX to rule the world?

[Doh]

Actually, this is exactly the OPPOSITE of what Santorum would want to see, especially if the NHC gets access to the information and no one else except University students or employees are allowed access it feeds right into his original bill stating that the NWS holds back info to the detriment of private weather companies...and local TV mets like us.

Now, from the website address, it looks like it's just an MM5 model. There's no reason why someone can't run the MM5 themselves centered on the hurricane's domain....I'm guessing it's more than that of course, but food for thought.
[Wink]

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forecastguy
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 04:29 PM      Profile for forecastguy   Email forecastguy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Waco,

FSU ran the MM5 ensemble (only one to my knowledge on the web.) They also had links to the super-ensembles.

Perhaps it's a bandwidth issue. Who knows.

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"This pattern is beyond sucking!" -- tv10wxman

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Scott Lincoln
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 06:54 PM      Profile for Scott Lincoln   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WacoWX:
quote:
Originally posted by wxspec:
our good friend Senator Santorum press.. Is it finally getting the ball rolling on his master plan for ACU WX to rule the world?

[Doh]

Actually, this is exactly the OPPOSITE of what Santorum would want to see, especially if the NHC gets access to the information and no one else except University students or employees are allowed access it feeds right into his original bill stating that the NWS holds back info to the detriment of private weather companies...and local TV mets like us.

Now, from the website address, it looks like it's just an MM5 model. There's no reason why someone can't run the MM5 themselves centered on the hurricane's domain....I'm guessing it's more than that of course, but food for thought.
[Wink]

Its more than just the MM5... seems like some of the staff's weather pages are down too....

--------------------
Scott Lincoln
Graduate Student
Department of Geological and Atmospheric Sciences
Iowa State University
Environmental Science / Hydrology / Meteorology
Central Iowa Storm Spotter / Chaser
Professional Portfolio

Posts: 147 | From: Ames | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
nsj
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 07:19 PM      Profile for nsj     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Looks like there's been an update in verbiage:
quote:
Notice: Florida State University has mandated effective 24 May 2006 that no real-time weather forecasts relating potentially in any way to hurricanes are to be disseminated by faculty or students at FSU due to liability concerns.
Looks like the lawyers got to 'em.

[ May 24, 2006, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: nsj ]

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offshore moflo
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 07:21 PM      Profile for offshore moflo   Email offshore moflo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Kirby W. Kemper
Vice President for Research
kkemper@research.fsu.edu
www.research.fsu.edu
850.644.3347

[ May 24, 2006, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: offshore moflo ]

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Can you accurately predict what my middle finger's going to do?

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Keyeser
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Keyeser   Email Keyeser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What kind of crap is that? Why would FSU be held liable for anything if any other government/state run facility is spewing out model data for any and all to see. Does this mean the COD or OU or any other school is going to stop allowing us to see their stuff because of the potential liability of forecasting a tornado, blizzard or even a sunny day? This easily falls under the WTF category....

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Sooner Born... Sooner Bred... and When I Die I'll Be Sooner Dead...

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rdale
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 07:48 PM      Profile for rdale   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How do people even come close to equating this with Santorum's bill? His bill would specifically ensure we get data like this. And I think it is also a far stretch to say more sites will be going offline. Step back and breathe ;>
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Great Cornholio
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 07:49 PM      Profile for Great Cornholio   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Red Rover:
I can understand them not wanting anything to do with Hurricane(s)

 -

No, the kind of hurricanes we're talking about are ok.....NO KICKERS ARE INVOLVED! [Big Grin] [Doh]
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UniversityofMiamiWX
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Icon 12 posted May 24, 2006 08:02 PM      Profile for UniversityofMiamiWX   Author's Homepage   Email UniversityofMiamiWX   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like those Hurricanes.

[ May 24, 2006, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: UniversityofMiamiWX ]

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Jay Embee wants snow
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Icon 13 posted May 24, 2006 09:04 PM      Profile for Jay Embee wants snow   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whole text of an email I just sent to Kirby...

quote:
Kirby W. Kemper,
You and your "staff" are just plain stupid. What liability issues? Do you and your so called "informed" staff realize that if liability was an issue in weather forcasting, I could sue my local met for missing the Blizzard of 1996 by 2 feet? There is no liability here. What I see is a bunch of scared non-meteorologist administrators being scared by what the University's legal team has to say on the matter. DO SOME FACT CHECKING is all the advice I can give to you. Feel free to respond to anything in this email if you feel up to it.

And you call yourself a researcher...

(Signature deleted for security purposes)


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FSU Weather
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 09:10 PM      Profile for FSU Weather   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. It's quite an intriguing story to say the least. Still trying to sort through it all.
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Al Bedo
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 09:17 PM      Profile for Al Bedo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I spoke to a friend of mine at FSU...needless to say he is outraged over this. If this were to hold up, it would a disturbing change. I think by Friday night though, this issue will be resolved...but if it isn't..this is going to become a major issue. Our field is about competition, yes. But, it's never been because of a data gap. We all have access to the same info most of the time...or we have the capability to access the info the other guy has..if we want it badly enough...but to remove this info from public domain is a huge step backward for our field and science.

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"I may be antipasta, but I'm provolone."

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offshore moflo
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 09:33 PM      Profile for offshore moflo   Email offshore moflo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Embee:
Whole text of an email I just sent to Kirby...

quote:
Kirby W. Kemper,
You and your "staff" are just plain stupid. What liability issues? Do you and your so called "informed" staff realize that if liability was an issue in weather forcasting, I could sue my local met for missing the Blizzard of 1996 by 2 feet? There is no liability here. What I see is a bunch of scared non-meteorologist administrators being scared by what the University's legal team has to say on the matter. DO SOME FACT CHECKING is all the advice I can give to you. Feel free to respond to anything in this email if you feel up to it.

And you call yourself a researcher...

(Signature deleted for security purposes)


Nice/Constructive emails go a lot farther than rude ones...

Mr Kemper,

I found your email on the FSU Website, and if you are not the right person to write to regarding this matter I would appreciate you passing this along to the right ears.

For the past few incredible hurricane seasons, Florida State has been hosting the best hurricane forecast model data center on the web. I am a forecaster for a television station in Philadelphia, PA, and during the heart of hurricane season we use your website more than the National Hurricane Center website because it gives us one stop access to all of the hurricane weather models running across the world.

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/

I logged on to the site today to see this message...

Notice: Florida State University has mandated effective 24 May 2006 that no real-time weather forecasts relating potentially
in any way to hurricanes are to be disseminated by faculty or students at FSU due to liability concerns.
Consequently, this web page has been shut down UFN.





We will be much worse off this hurricane season informing the public about hurricanes if your website is offline because it delivers timely information to forecasters that are not available anywhere else on the web.

I hope that coming from a research standpoint, you will understand how important data is to any scientist. That is what you have been providing to the weather forecasting community: crucial data that helps us make important decisions in our forecasts. I sincerely hope your university will reconsider its decision to shut down this website.

Thank you for listening to my concerns,

me

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Can you accurately predict what my middle finger's going to do?

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SevereClear
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 09:37 PM      Profile for SevereClear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Good email moflo...
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offshore moflo
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Icon 1 posted May 24, 2006 10:11 PM      Profile for offshore moflo   Email offshore moflo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What!!!!

Coolwx is gone too!!!!

http://www.coolwx.com/

You mean I have to rely on the vendors to give me cool and useful forecasting data.... [Frustrated] [Frustrated]

That's trouble... how much do we pay them again....

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wxspec
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Icon 1 posted May 25, 2006 04:20 AM      Profile for wxspec     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rdale:
How do people even come close to equating this with Santorum's bill? His bill would specifically ensure we get data like this. And I think it is also a far stretch to say more sites will be going offline. Step back and breathe ;>

hehehehe It's just fun to stir the sh** pot from time to time Rdale. [Big Grin]

[ May 25, 2006, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: wxspec ]

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rdale
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Icon 1 posted May 25, 2006 09:52 AM      Profile for rdale   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"It's just fun to stir"

I understand - but if you want to fix the pot you gotta do it with truthful comments...

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Vertical Velocity
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Icon 1 posted May 25, 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for Vertical Velocity     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I also wrote an email to Mr. Kemper. I used one of the websites on a daily basis, and this was mostly for non-hurricane related purposes. Let's hope that this decision can be reversed. To someone who is in the know, please keep us updated.

[ May 25, 2006, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Vertical Velocity ]

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wxspec
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 04:05 AM      Profile for wxspec     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rdale:
"It's just fun to stir"

I understand - but if you want to fix the pot you gotta do it with truthful comments...

[Cheers]
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FSU Weather
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 08:42 AM      Profile for FSU Weather   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The data will be back online soon. Everything (EXCEPT the Superensemble) will be available on FSU's web pages as before.

Now the Superensemble - that's a different story. No one will see that anytime soon. That's another story in itself. I won't go into details, however.

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Vertical Velocity
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 10:18 AM      Profile for Vertical Velocity     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The above statement seems to be true. Here is the reply I received from Mr. Kemper:

The chair of meteorology Dr. Ellingson is working quite hard to resolve this issue. I feel that by the end of today the majority of the issues will be resolved. The main issue deals with real time forecasts that use the Superensemble model. Any predictions derived from the Super Ensemble method are the province of a commercial firm. Professor Krishmamurti
received funding from this firm to assist in the development of the Super Ensemble method and signed an agreement with them that provides
the firm with the exclusive license to use the Super Ensemble method for hurricane prediction in real time and gives that firm rights to
distribute those predictions. That agreement included a clause specifying that no one at FSU nor the institution would compete with
that commercial firm in providing real-time predictions from the SE method. With respect to the SE method, that agreement must guide our
policy. All other information on the website should be up and running today or tomorrow.
Kirby Kemper

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Al Bedo
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 11:02 AM      Profile for Al Bedo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Vertical,

I got the same exact reply. All the websites that were previously online are back up and running as of now. I suspect there will be some fallout from this though in some way, shape or form.

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"I may be antipasta, but I'm provolone."

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Lenticular
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Lenticular     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FSU Weather:
The data will be back online soon. Everything (EXCEPT the Superensemble) will be available on FSU's web pages as before.

Now the Superensemble - that's a different story. No one will see that anytime soon. That's another story in itself. I won't go into details, however.

Was the Super-ensemble EVER online?

You "won't go into details"? WTF not?

Posts: 1004 | From: !3M TA3 | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
FSU Weather
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 06:18 PM      Profile for FSU Weather   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
...because I've opted not to. Thanks.
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Brick
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for Brick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It sure would be interesting to know who the "commercial firm" is that ponied up the money to not only help develop the model but keep all its output to themselves...

sounds fishy

[Whistle]

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When Chuck Norris does division, there are no remainders.

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SevereClear
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 08:23 PM      Profile for SevereClear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brick:
It sure would be interesting to know who the "commercial firm" is that ponied up the money to not only help develop the model but keep all its output to themselves...

sounds fishy

[Whistle]

I've got an idea of who it may be.... [Roll Eyes]

It sounds like that reply is being pasted into everyone's email. Poor Dr. Kemper.... [Big Grin]

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This Guy Is A Hero

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rdale
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 08:35 PM      Profile for rdale   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't have the slightest clue... It's obviously not AW, and I don't think any of the other biggies that we can come up with would do something like this either. It's really not fishy at all for a company to give a lot of money to a university to do research that they don't give out freely. That sounds like a good business practice to me!

What's your guess?

[ May 26, 2006, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: rdale ]

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Brick
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 10:41 PM      Profile for Brick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rdale:
I don't have the slightest clue... It's obviously not AW, and I don't think any of the other biggies that we can come up with would do something like this either. It's really not fishy at all for a company to give a lot of money to a university to do research that they don't give out freely. That sounds like a good business practice to me!

What's your guess?

I have no guess. But I would never be so bold to say that "It's obviously not AW", and I would never claim to be so connected to "any of the other biggies" that I would claim it couldn't be them.

There's no demanding of a conspiracy theory here, but to throw a 180 from public data to completely private is a little odd, don't you think Rob?

All I'm saying is that it's bush league. And in a world where everyone is trying to claim ownership to everything from water to information, I think it's pretty pathetic to say it's "good business practice".

[BS]

That's my guess. Care to offer yours?

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When Chuck Norris does division, there are no remainders.

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Lenticular
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2006 11:47 PM      Profile for Lenticular     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by FSU Weather:
...because I've opted not to. Thanks.

Tease.
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rdale
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 03:35 AM      Profile for rdale   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Because AW constantly complained about the inability to access superensemble data from FSU... And regarding the 180 - I don't think that data ever was public other than years ago when it first came out.

If my company gives a university a million bucks to develop a new computer model - wouldn't it make sense that I don't let that info out for free?

[ May 27, 2006, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: rdale ]

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Brick
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 05:23 AM      Profile for Brick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rdale:
If my company gives a university a million bucks to develop a new computer model - wouldn't it make sense that I don't let that info out for free?

Yes. But what is the reason it took this long for them to demand propriety?

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When Chuck Norris does division, there are no remainders.

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SevereClear
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 06:58 AM      Profile for SevereClear     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rdale:
What's your guess?

Insurance Company

--------------------
This Guy Is A Hero

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TAFKA wacowx
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 07:21 AM      Profile for TAFKA wacowx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with rdale here [Eek!]

It can't be AW. The SE was designed FOR a company and AW complained about lack of access to it while the government (NHC) did have access. If AW was that company, why wouldn't they have had access?

The only thing that MAY have happened...and it's a stretch just to get model data...is AW could have bought said company.

Now if said company were Weather Data, Inc...then I guess we have no argument, but I think it's more likely a local Florida firm who decided to work with them on the SE and gave a hefty amount of money.

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Brick
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2006 04:00 PM      Profile for Brick     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Frustrated]

I'm not trying to claim any particular company's responsibility in this or debate their involvement. I don't care about AccuWeather. It's just that I'm not involved with any corporation enough to be so bold as to rule them in or out.

Alls I'm sayin'[sic] here is that the timing is suspect and it is awfully sudden to not think something is...yes...fishy.

Had the following not been said by someone I believe to be somewhat "in the know"...
quote:
There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. It's quite an intriguing story to say the least. Still trying to sort through it all.
...I probably would have looked this whole thread over.

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When Chuck Norris does division, there are no remainders.

Posts: 1564 | From: up nort' | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged


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